Curse

Gwmaster · Mar 16, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

i stoped farming at least 4 months ago, and i have to say that that i hate this type of Ai specialy wen playing with heroes/henches, since they will start to follow the monster and aggro another group that will be nearby. Dont tell me to bring a cripple lol i always have one on me

.

lacasner · Mar 16, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Imo, Mmo's shouldn't have a right or wrong way to play.

KANE OG · Mar 16, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Still don't know what the problem is. I've made more money now farming than ever before, and I don't sell to other players, run UW/FOW or any of the elite missions.

Yet once a week there's another thread by someone whining because they can't farm. Like I said, I still don't know what the fuss is all aboot. Oh well, off to make another 20k.

KANE

explodemyheart · Mar 16, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by KANE OG

Still don't know what the problem is. I've made more money now farming than ever before, and I don't sell to other players, run UW/FOW or any of the elite missions.

Yet once a week there's another thread by someone whining because they can't farm. Like I said, I still don't know what the fuss is all aboot. Oh well, off to make another 20k.

KANE

I really don't understand either. I've made roughly 75k in maybe 3 hours of farming in the last two days. Farming using the ZOMG SO RUINED SoJ, even.

Shakti · Mar 16, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

I aggree with Kane and explodemyheart. Yeah, I had to change tactics slightly with my nuke in PvE.....so what? I shifted my skills around voilia! Instant un-nerf nuker. Same for farming. Do as well now gold per run as before the change. I was irritated as hell at first that my spiteful necro that I farmed UW with my guy's 55 was "ruined"...then I got up and got the hell over it and tried somthing new. new builds new techniques and he and I are UWing away lol.

Sk8tborderx · Mar 16, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

@KESKI - I was just making an example of why the ai is actually worse than before, if they want to improve it then they need to make the enemies do something useful, not stand there like they went afk waiting for their health to regen. Farmers DO bring the price down for many items in the game, I remember when perfect fellblades were selling for 700k+ same with chaos axes, if it was not for the farmers the price would still be really high because you still have ebayers and people who got really lucky drops that will pay for it. I do not farm, I solo many different areas and will sometimes spend weeks figuring out a solo build for a certain area, I don't only farm certain mobs, I try to solo everything in the zone and then post the build on my guilds forums if someone would like to farm. The ai change does not really affect me because I do not use cookie cutter builds, it is just annoying and makes the enemies dumber imo.

@AGE - Warriors are far from useless in PvE, tanks were ALWAYS useless in PvE, they wasted space, warriors can do great damage and to not take a warrior to deal damage just makes killing take longer. I have NEVER played a tank with my warrior in the 20 months I have been playing, the only tank skill you need is dolyak sig, fill the rest of the spots with a rez, heal sig, and attack skills, if your party cannot stay alive that is THEIR problem because THEY do not have the right build. I took a tank with me to FoW to try the book trick back when it was around and I found that it took almost an hour longer to clear. People are so used to playing other MMO's that they think tanks are needed but in this game they are useless plain and simple. Droks runs have actually gotten easier for W/MO's thanks to signet of stamina, just replace smite hex with signet of stamina and you should have no problems making it every time.

KESKI · Mar 16, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

@KESKI - I was just making an example of why the ai is actually worse than before, if they want to improve it then they need to make the enemies do something useful, not stand there like they went afk waiting for their health to regen. Farmers DO bring the price down for many items in the game, I remember when perfect fellblades were selling for 700k+ same with chaos axes, if it was not for the farmers the price would still be really high because you still have ebayers and people who got really lucky drops that will pay for it. I do not farm, I solo many different areas and will sometimes spend weeks figuring out a solo build for a certain area, I don't only farm certain mobs, I try to solo everything in the zone and then post the build on my guilds forums if someone would like to farm. The ai change does not really affect me because I do not use cookie cutter builds, it is just annoying and makes the enemies dumber imo.

Actually, you should know that, the price of fullblade went down as many weapon a like(FDS??) is because its no longer "Desire".
Why it isn't desired??
1. its there since the very begining of GW...in other words most of people who want it will have it by now.
2. The introduce of new skins, for every new chapter we get few more skins...a lot of people are attract to the new one.

All farmers might have done is making a skin's "getting old" speed went up....hardly any cycle breaking

And let me ask you. how can people easily come up with 700k price tag and even make a sell back then??
I mean, if A-Net don't sell ingame gold themselves...where did all those money come from.
From massive farming of course(yes power trade earn money faster, but note that there need to be "that many money" in the market for you to power trade)
So it was massive farming that put the price way up in the first place

saying farming save the day?? woo I am shock

No, farming isn't something bad or forbid, if anyone tell me people shouldn't find joy in farming I will say...."so why does those monster even hold items??"
But I also know that massive farming with out an equal amount of gold sink will cause problem in a game economic system(which they already have in GW

)...of course I am not going to stop farming myself, but I wont point my finger at A-Net saying they should sit idly by.

And please define your meaning of dumb. I agree that the current AI is not what I call smart....realy lack tactical senses

But I do find it better then the "eat themselves to dead" AI...and I mean better by acting little more logical as an intelligent life form capable of endanger human civilization

(far from this level of intelligent yet, but ....well maybe in another 2 years??

)

Sk8tborderx · Mar 16, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

They just need to actually do something about the ai instead of make them run around like chickens with their head cut off or go stand somewhere until their health regens. Right now I look at the ai as I would the last guy alive on the opposing team in RA who just runs, he knows he is going to die but he is just delaying his death. The monsters do almost the same thing, but its not the last one, its all but 3, its stupid and not human like at all.

The ai is just as bad for henchies, I cannot even count the number of times I have died recently because the monk hench is running around like an idiot which usually ends up drawing more aggro to him so nobody gets healed.

The main reason they made the ai changes is because of bots, and as much as I hate to say it the only way to get rid of them would be to completely nerf the 55 builds, I love playing my 55 characters and would hate to see them get nerfed, but that is really the only option available.

MrTickle · Mar 16, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

What annoys me is that your heroes and henches won't run from the same kind of AoE ... "Oh it's raining fire.... Nevermind"

Obey The Cat · Mar 16, 2007, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Haha that's right. Why can't casters simply run back if mobs are coming closer like players instead of moving to another mob group in front of you? Oh and yes, I also noticed that your npcs won't run from AoE. Very annoying. Without use of flags or interrupts, 2 hydras can bash them all.

reetkever · Mar 16, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by KESKI

Actually, you should know that, the price of fullblade went down as many weapon a like(FDS??) is because its no longer "Desire".
Why it isn't desired??
1. its there since the very begining of GW...in other words most of people who want it will have it by now.
2. The introduce of new skins, for every new chapter we get few more skins...a lot of people are attract to the new one.

All farmers might have done is making a skin's "getting old" speed went up....hardly any cycle breaking

And let me ask you. how can people easily come up with 700k price tag and even make a sell back then??
I mean, if A-Net don't sell ingame gold themselves...where did all those money come from.
From massive farming of course(yes power trade earn money faster, but note that there need to be "that many money" in the market for you to power trade)
So it was massive farming that put the price way up in the first place

saying farming save the day?? woo I am shock

No, farming isn't something bad or forbid, if anyone tell me people shouldn't find joy in farming I will say...."so why does those monster even hold items??"
But I also know that massive farming with out an equal amount of gold sink will cause problem in a game economic system(which they already have in GW

)...of course I am not going to stop farming myself, but I wont point my finger at A-Net saying they should sit idly by.

And please define your meaning of dumb. I agree that the current AI is not what I call smart....realy lack tactical senses

But I do find it better then the "eat themselves to dead" AI...and I mean better by acting little more logical as an intelligent life form capable of endanger human civilization

(far from this level of intelligent yet, but ....well maybe in another 2 years??

)

What ruined Fellblades is that these weapons now come with inscriptions, and a req 8 15>50 fellblade is basicly worth just as much as a req 8 20<50 fellblade. Fellblades didn't get killed by desire, they got killed by inscriptions (like MANY, MANY other weapons). What's the use of a skin that everyone has, and can be obtained very easy? (Except if you actually like the skin, but in that case nothing would ruin it for you, except your own taste.)

Massive farming does NEVER make prices higher. Drop rates do. People who sell the weapon do. But farming itself doesn't. If you find a perfect Crystalline Sword req 7 15^50, would you sell it for 100K with the knowledge alot of people would buy for 100K + 250 ecto's?

The less an item drops, the more people are willing to give for that item.

Also, this is dumb: An army of gigantic monsters with great armor, great weapons, perfect reflexes, loads of HP running away for 1 level 20 guy.

A 'smart' troll would try and kill the guy. A 'smart' vermin would get his friends, and try to beat up the lvl 20 guy.

If you see a nerd in a pub, would you get your muscular friends and beat him up, or run away from him?

Also, what's even more dumb than the monsters are the heroes/henchies. COME ON, MHENLO STOP RUNNING FROM A LEVEL 4 WARRIOR AND ACTUALLY HEAL SOMEONE!

Edit: Also, monster are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SMART. Just look at a troll. Does it look highly intelligent? No. Leave thinking to us humans and PvP'ers. Leave brute force to monsters. In brute force, monsters would always win. In tactics, humans win, and that's good, cause monsters are supposed to be killed by humans.

Priest Of Sin · Mar 16, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Meteor Shower: Rain colossal flaming rocks down upon somebody's head.
Sandstorm: Big ol' windstorm moving sand around, ripping off your flesh.
Spiteful Spirit: Ghost beats the shit out of you when you attack.
VwK: Your life-force is stolen as you attack the person

It'd make me run...

KANE OG · Mar 16, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obey The Cat

Haha that's right. Why can't casters simply run back if mobs are coming closer like players instead of moving to another mob group in front of you?

Then everyone would bitch because they weren't fighting. No Win situation FTL.

KANE

KESKI · Mar 16, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

They just need to actually do something about the ai instead of make them run around like chickens with their head cut off or go stand somewhere until their health regens. Right now I look at the ai as I would the last guy alive on the opposing team in RA who just runs, he knows he is going to die but he is just delaying his death. The monsters do almost the same thing, but its not the last one, its all but 3, its stupid and not human like at all.

Its realy not as bad as a pvp runner

And I hope you arent those who cant do nothing to a runner, and only capable of calling them names

Pluse, those monster do come back for more after regen right??
if you want to talk about pvp, that is perfectly normal to stop attacking retreat to a distance and get you hp back. Go ahead ask any pvper, or do a few run yourself.

Quote:

The main reason they made the ai changes is because of bots, and as much as I hate to say it the only way to get rid of them would be to completely nerf the 55 builds, I love playing my 55 characters and would hate to see them get nerfed, but that is really the only option available.

um...well if you dont know this yet I guess that prove your purity??

Bot are capable of other build like 600 monk, E/A farmor and so(you can find this with google search

, but I wont sugest visiting any of them...why risk your own account for that)
For a totaly defensive build like 55, the monster is taking the right tactic

might not be the best tactic, but it is a right choice

and for the hench AI...well ya, I have no idea why they dont run from AOE....not even during critical condition, which I been mailing A-Net ever since...but that is a different topic

KESKI · Mar 16, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

What ruined Fellblades is that these weapons now come with inscriptions, and a req 8 15>50 fellblade is basicly worth just as much as a req 8 20<50 fellblade. Fellblades didn't get killed by desire, they got killed by inscriptions (like MANY, MANY other weapons). What's the use of a skin that everyone has, and can be obtained very easy? (Except if you actually like the skin, but in that case nothing would ruin it for you, except your own taste.)

you do know you are backing me up right??
the fact is, desire level among community for a skin is what cause a skin's price to go up and down in the game like this.(assuming the status are the same that is)
Let it be investment desire or fashion, its all the same

Quote:

Massive farming does NEVER make prices higher. Drop rates do. People who sell the weapon do. But farming itself doesn't. If you find a perfect Crystalline Sword req 7 15^50, would you sell it for 100K with the knowledge alot of people would buy for 100K + 250 ecto's?

The less an item drops, the more people are willing to give for that item.

And all those money/ecto must come from somewhere.
Did you even read your quote??

Quote:

A 'smart' troll would try and kill the guy. A 'smart' vermin would get his friends, and try to beat up the lvl 20 guy.

They did I believe, and when they see their attack arent effective and they are the only one getting own, they take the smart choice of backing out.(but not smart enough to say, "hell I am out of here and log out

" which is a good thing I guess)

Quote:

If you see a nerd in a pub, would you get your muscular friends and beat him up, or run away from him?

um...srry I personaly dont involve in any bar/pub fight.
but I can tell you, if he is holding something or using something that look like I will be the one dead on the ground...hell I am out and I am not risking my friend too, what kind of friend will I be??
and if its a nerd that shows no threat at all....why do I need my friend?? I have my own legs and arms...I am more then capable of doing my own fighting

What kind of person will I be if I get other 7 friend just to beat up some guy??

Quote:

Edit: Also, monster are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SMART. Just look at a troll. Does it look highly intelligent? No. Leave thinking to us humans and PvP'ers. Leave brute force to monsters. In brute force, monsters would always win. In tactics, humans win, and that's good, cause monsters are supposed to be killed by humans.

never read any fiction??
Brute force will never be the only factor evil domain others, they must had done some smart(or tricky) things.
LOR, is demon smart?? of course, the Ring trick is so out their it owns every other race.(only elves figure it out

) Even after their Sauron's seal, the generals did a fine job on caring out his terror. Using their advantage(air force??) and other cool equipment, that prove they are capable of intelligent thinking.
I am sure monster can be kill by human, dont know if they should, but they can. But not by any human right??
Look at how many monsters and demons Aragorn slay in combat, and look at how many our sideshow friend "un-name warrior" slay in combat.....
So if you find the monster is too hard to kill...maybe you want ask yourself
"AM I ARAGORN ENOUGH??"

and its not like you cant kill 1, you are complaining you cant kill "10+" monster a time

P.S: If A-Net offer multi-AI for different foes, then I might agree that some should be dumb and some should be smart, but saying all warrior should be dumb is just so not true

But untile then...yes I will perfer they pick the most likley the smartest race and put in on all foes. As I said, I want to fight the smartest A-Net can offer, not some 3rd rate living dead that is a pity even be created

reetkever · Mar 16, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by KESKI

you do know you are backing me up right??
the fact is, desire level among community for a skin is what cause a skin's price to go up and down in the game like this.(assuming the status are the same that is)
Let it be investment desire or fashion, its all the same

And all those money/ecto must come from somewhere.
Did you even read your quote??

They did I believe, and when they see their attack arent effective and they are the only one getting own, they take the smart choice of backing out.(but not smart enough to say, "hell I am out of here and log out

" which is a good thing I guess)

um...srry I personaly dont involve in any bar/pub fight.
but I can tell you, if he is holding something or using something that look like I will be the one dead on the ground...hell I am out and I am not risking my friend too, what kind of friend will I be??
and if its a nerd that shows no threat at all....why do I need my friend?? I have my own legs and arms...I am more then capable of doing my own fighting

What kind of person will I be if I get other 7 friend just to beat up some guy??

never read any fiction??
Brute force will never be the only factor evil domain others, they must had done some smart(or tricky) things.
LOR, is demon smart?? of course, the Ring trick is so out their it owns every other race.(only elves figure it out

) Even after their Sauron's seal, the generals did a fine job on caring out his terror. Using their advantage(air force??) and other cool equipment, that prove they are capable of intelligent thinking.
I am sure monster can be kill by human, dont know if they should, but they can. But not by any human right??
Look at how many monsters and demons Aragorn slay in combat, and look at how many our sideshow friend "un-name warrior" slay in combat.....
So if you find the monster is too hard to kill...maybe you want ask yourself
"AM I ARAGORN ENOUGH??"

and its not like you cant kill 1, you are complaining you cant kill "10+" monster a time

P.S: If A-Net offer multi-AI for different foes, then I might agree that some should be dumb and some should be smart, but saying all warrior should be dumb is just so not true

But untile then...yes I will perfer they pick the most likley the smartest race and put in on all foes. As I said, I want to fight the smartest A-Net can offer, not some 3rd rate living dead that is a pity even be created

Yes the money/ecto's come from mass-farming. mass-farmers can buy rare skins. People who don't farm cannot, and that is a good thing. You can't get everything without doing something for it people. (Well in GW you almost can :S)

If I had the brains of a troll, I wouldn't even know that the enemy was stronger, I mean... "Me strong! You die! *goes berserk*" Running away for a level 20 guy with less armor, health, damage output, reaction time would be kind of... cowardly.

If monsters should be 'smart' enough to predict danger, they should all step aside in the first place. *Does THK, all monsters do /beg and stay out of our way because our skillbar is too good for them*

With the nerd thing... I mean a guy who's kicking you in the balls all the time or something like that

Getting your friends equals what the trolls do, as they come with the entire group.

I don't really read fiction, actually, but I did see LotR, and it also had orcs who mindlessly run into battle and mindlessly try to take down a stronghold. Monsters in Guild Wars often don't have a smart master, cause they are not humanoid but just monsters. Also, they're not evil, we're barging in their homelands ^^

Zonzai · Mar 16, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

I still don't see how people find it fun fighting enemies that set like magnets on the first guy to aggro them while an Ele nukes the living shit out of them - or they kill themselves hitting said tank from skills like SS, and they just stand there and die. Might as well load up doom 3 and play super turbo turkey puncher on the arcade machines.

Well put.

Realm of Fiery Doom · Mar 16, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

The topic (about the AI, not farming) is pretty close to my heart, because my Lord of Fiery Doom is a pyromancer. I do not want to change him, but it's still sad that I can't even pull off a Phoenix - Lava Burst - Inferno combo without the monsters running off before I even start Inferno. And that AoE spells are not all that effective if the monsters only take about 2-3 seconds worth of damage.

lacasner · Mar 16, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

The Main Point of the thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

If monsters should be 'smart' enough to predict danger, they should all step aside in the first place.

Reet they already do that, all you gotta do is press alt-f4 and you win!

Seriously, farming is a delicate subject in a sense, but like I have been saying it's not the farming nerfs that have affected the playerbase more.(at least i think so) It rather the lack of things, lack of variety, except to do missions, quests, missions, quests and wash rinse and repeat.

Age · Mar 16, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

@KESKI - I was just making an example of why the ai is actually worse than before, if they want to improve it then they need to make the enemies do something useful, not stand there like they went afk waiting for their health to regen. Farmers DO bring the price down for many items in the game, I remember when perfect fellblades were selling for 700k+ same with chaos axes, if it was not for the farmers the price would still be really high because you still have ebayers and people who got really lucky drops that will pay for it. I do not farm, I solo many different areas and will sometimes spend weeks figuring out a solo build for a certain area, I don't only farm certain mobs, I try to solo everything in the zone and then post the build on my guilds forums if someone would like to farm. The ai change does not really affect me because I do not use cookie cutter builds, it is just annoying and makes the enemies dumber imo.

@AGE - Warriors are far from useless in PvE, tanks were ALWAYS useless in PvE, they wasted space, warriors can do great damage and to not take a warrior to deal damage just makes killing take longer. I have NEVER played a tank with my warrior in the 20 months I have been playing, the only tank skill you need is dolyak sig, fill the rest of the spots with a rez, heal sig, and attack skills, if your party cannot stay alive that is THEIR problem because THEY do not have the right build. I took a tank with me to FoW to try the book trick back when it was around and I found that it took almost an hour longer to clear. People are so used to playing other MMO's that they think tanks are needed but in this game they are useless plain and simple. Droks runs have actually gotten easier for W/MO's thanks to signet of stamina, just replace smite hex with signet of stamina and you should have no problems making it every time.

I don't play your classical Tank like in other MMOs as I know this game is different and I play a damage dealing Warrior it just sems to me from having a debate with Derv.s they can do it better.It would seem that they have better skills than a Warrior for all out damage and even the Droks run and I have seen one use the signet of stamina didn't work well.

I know what you mean that Tanks can't deal damage and I agree with you they can't all they can do is absorb it and let the spell castors do the real damage.This is what most are acustomed to in GW when in a coop mission.I have seen bad wipes because of AI change as Warriors need to change.They need to change from strengh to weapon mastery but with all those 15K sentinal Warriors that is going to be hard.I do agree it is harder to get henchies or heros to do what you want them to do and for them to know it and playing a Monk I don't like calling targets in a mission.